Hey! Nilay here. It’s conference season, so I’m traveling across the country and around the world a lot more than usual. Stay tuned for some very special Decoder episodes we have coming up soon, starting on Monday. In the meantime, I wanted to share a conversation between my friend Peter Kafka and Condé Nast CEO Roger Lynch on the excellent Channels podcast. Lynch says he’s told his teams to assume that traffic will be zero from now on — that’s what I’ve been calling Google Zero. Roger also shares his thoughts on AI, the growing influence of the creator economy, and more. Links: * Channels with Peter Kafka | Apple Podcasts * Condé Nast CEO: Plan As If Search Traffic Will Be Zero | Search Engine Journal * Sundar Pichai on AI, the future of search, and what’s happening to the web | Decoder * Google Zero is here — now what? | Decoder * Google admits the open web is in ‘rapid decline’ | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. This is a real burner of an episode. We covered everything from his approach to training new models to his criticisms of Anthropic talking about Claude as though it is conscious. Of course, we also talked about Microsoft’s relationship with OpenAI, how Mustafa is thinking about all the negative polling and political pushback around AI right now, and whether any of the consumer products are good enough to overcome it. Like I said, it’s a burner. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * Microsoft and OpenAI broke up — now they’re ready to fight | The Verge * Microsoft Build 2026: The 7 biggest announcements | The Verge * Microsoft’s first advanced reasoning AI is here | The Verge * Microsoft’s new ‘superintelligence’ game plan is all about business | The Verge * Here’s how the new Microsoft and OpenAI deal breaks down | The Verge * Microsoft AI chief says 18 months until white-collar tasks automated by AI | FT Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Ryan Mac, a technology reporter at The New York Times and co-author of the excellent book Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter, which came out in 2024. I wanted to have Ryan on today because we’re on the cusp of the SpaceX IPO, which promises to be one of the most consequential public offerings in history for a variety of reasons. Its biggest-ever size, of course, at nearly $2 trillion dollars. But also because all kinds of rules that keep our markets fair are being bent, if not outright broken, along the way. And, also because buried somewhere inside SpaceX is X, the social platform formerly known as Twitter, which Musk purchased in 2022. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * Welcome to hell, Elon | The Verge * The SpaceX IPO is great for Elon Musk and terrible for you | The Verge * In SpaceX’s IPO, Elon Musk is the risk factor | The Verge * For Wall Street, the only thing worse than SpaceX flopping is missing out | NYT * How SpaceX Is structured to favor Elon Musk | NYT * As the SpaceX hype machine steamrolls ahead, Wall Street jumps aboard | NYT * The SpaceX IPO Reveals What Really Happened to Twitter | NY Mag Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I last talked to Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr in 2024 — when it was obvious that generative AI would upend the music industry, but not exactly clear how that would happen. Now, Harvey says AI is “omnipresent” in music production. So what kinds of tools are musicians using, in what way, and what kind of music is it making for us? Is it any good? And how do we identify, and take care of, actual human musicians in this mess? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * Why the Grammys need to change, with CEO Harvey Mason Jr | Decoder * Is ‘blue dot fever’ a real problem for the concert industry? | Los Angeles Times * USA v. LiveNation-Ticketmaster: All the news | The Verge * The future of country music is here, and it’s AI | The Verge * Poll: AI is transforming how we think about music | Hollywood Reporter * Inside the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ era of AI in music | Rolling Stone Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Wassym Bensaid, the chief software officer at Rivian, and the co-ceo of Rivian’s platform joint venture with Volkswagen. That joint venture, called RV Tech, is about a year and a half old, so I wanted to ask Wassym how it all works and Rivian’s ongoing relationship with Volkswagen. Because it’s Rivian, I also had to ask Wassym about CarPlay. But the company also just launched an AI-powered voice assistant, which I got to try early. So I had a lot of fun digging into that with Wassym, too. This is a fun one – really in the weeds of a lot of my favorite things to talk about. Links: * Rivian’s AI-powered voice assistant is ready to roll | The Verge * The R2 is nearly here — can Rivian stick the landing? | The Verge * Rivian’s AI pivot is about more than chasing Tesla | The Verge * Rivian / VW will start testing their first EVs next year | The Verge * Rivian CEO: ‘We’re really convicted’ about skipping CarPlay | Decoder (2025) * Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe says too many carmakers are copying Tesla | Decoder (2024) * Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder (2023) * Rivian’s chief software officer says in-car buttons are ‘an anomaly’ | TechCrunch Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt,. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Connecting with Google CEO Sundar Pichai at I/O every year is one of my favorite Decoder traditions. This was our fifth year doing it, and there’s always a whole slew of new things to talk about. This year, in addition to the news, we talked about Google Zero; picking fights with YouTube creators and publishers; and what being at “the foothills of the singularity" even means. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * If Google can’t make AI agents useful, maybe no one can | The Verge * The future of Google is a search box that does everything | The Verge * Large language mistake | The Verge * You can now remix other people’s YouTube Shorts with AI | The Verge * Condé Nast calls Google Zero | The Verge * Demis Hassabis said this may be the ‘foothills of the singularity’ | The Verge * Google I/O 2026: All the news and announcements | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Musk v Altman was nominally about OpenAI's conversion to a for-profit entity, and how it went about that change. But really, the suit seems mostly to have been about Elon Musk being mad at Sam Altman — or at OpenAI, for being successful without him — and wanting him punished in some way. Verge reporter Liz Lopatto spent the last month covering the trial, in all its chaos, and joins Decoder to ask: In a courtroom full of untrustworthy, unreliable people all fighting with each other, did anyone even have a reputation left to lose? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * Elon Musk loses his case against Sam Altman | The Verge * Musk v. Altman proved AI is led by the wrong people | The Verge * Musk v. Altman accomplished nothing but airing dirty laundry | The Verge * Elon Musk’s worst enemy in court is Elon Musk | The Verge * Behold, the Elon Musk jackass trophy | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just days before we spoke, BuzzFeed co-founder and CEO Jonah Peretti agreed to sell the company, which was losing money and at risk of shutting down. Now there’s a new lease on life — and new leadership. Jonah is taking on a new role as president of BuzzFeed AI, and Byron Allen will become CEO of BuzzFeed. That’s obviously a huge structural and organizational change, and a really big decision — prime Decoder bait if there ever was any. What are digital media companies doing to adapt and survive in an information landscape dominated by algorithmic social platforms? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * Byron Allen is buying BuzzFeed and becoming CEO | Variety * BuzzFeed issues going concern warning, lacks liquidity | Wall Street Journal * BuzzFeed News is shutting down | The Verge * BuzzFeed sells Hot Ones studio in $82.5M deal | NBC News * The unbearable lightness of BuzzFeed | The Verge * I hate myself because I don’t work for BuzzFeed (2015) | The Awl Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brendan Ballou is founder of the Public Integrity Project and author of the new book, When Companies Run the Courts, about the rise of forced arbitration. Forced arbitration is similarly everywhere in modern life, and there have been some very high-profile cases these past few years highlighting how deeply unfair these clauses are to consumers. Brendan’s book delves into how and why we got here — spoiler: we can blame Antonin Scalia for some of it — but also, most importantly, how we may be able to fight back in the future. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * When Companies Run the Courts | Hachette * Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys ‘R Us | Decoder * Press freedom groups demand access to Paramount records | The Wrap * Disney gives up on trying to use Disney+ to settle wrongful death suit | The Verge * Samsung, corruption, and you (2017) | The Verge * The surprising case for AI judges | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decode Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is longtime friend of the show Joanna Stern. You all know Joanna: she is the former senior personal technology columnist for The Wall Street Journal, a former Decoder guest host, one of my co-founders at The Verge, and also just one of my very closest friends. Joanna just left that lofty perch at the Journal to start her own media company called New Things, and she’s starting with her new book about AI called I Am Not a Robot, which is out this week on May 12th. So we had Joanna on to talk about all of that, especially what she learned going all in on automation. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: * I Am Not a Robot | Harper Collins * It’s time. Meet my New Thing | Joanna Stern * Why I left My prestigious job to make YouTube videos | Joanna Stern / YouTube * Signing off from this column after 12 years. Here’s what’s changed in tech | WSJ * I tried the robot that’s coming to live with you. It’s still par human | WSJ * The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone, Nilay here. We’re off today, while the team and I are cooking on a lot of really great stuff in the coming weeks. We’ll be back with an all-new interview on Monday. In the meantime, we really wanted to highlight this episode we first aired in the fall, because it’s about a huge subject: AI in schools. The school year is starting to wrap up now around the country, and we’re no closer to figuring out how to thread the needle about generative AI in education than we were in September. Links: * A majority of high school students use gen AI for schoolwork | College Board * About a quarter of teens have used ChatGPT for schoolwork | Pew Research * Your brain on ChatGPT | MIT Media Lab * My students think it’s fine to cheat with AI. Maybe they’re on to something. | Vox * How children understand and learn from conversational AI | McGill University * ‘File not Found’ | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s become an annual tradition to have Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi join us in the studio when he comes to New York for Uber’s big Go-Get event every year. This year, the big news was that Uber's expanding into a much larger platform for travel, starting with hotel booking and services like personal shopping. Uber is going so far as to call this an everything app, so I wanted to see how far Dara thinks everything actually goes — and whether he’s feeling pressure to own more of the user experience in a world where AI companies keep promising that their chatbots will book all the cars for you. Links: * Uber adds hotels to its app in big travel swing | The Verge * Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi is okay with reinventing the bus | Decoder * I have to be honest, AI will replace jobs at Uber | Diary of a CEO * The DoorDash problem | Decoder * Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky wants to build the everything app | Decoder * Booking and Priceline chief wants you to yell at bots, not humans | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Nick Statt, senior producer on Decoder. We last ran a mailbag episode during the holidays, and we decided it was a good idea to do that kind of thing more often. So we’re back with Nilay as the guest, answering questions and responding to feedback, criticism, and suggestions. We talk through some recent controversial episodes like our interviews with the CEOs of Superhuman and Puck, and we also discuss how we’re covering AI, thinking about the future of the show, and what it takes to win (and lose) Decoder. Links: * Nilay answers your burning Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2025) * Answering your biggest Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2024) * Confronting the CEO of the AI company that impersonated me | Decoder * Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age? | Decoder * The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jennifer Scanlon is CEO of UL Solutions, one of those hidden-in-plain-sight companies we like to poke at here on Decoder. UL's been around for more than 100 years; it started as a way for insurance companies to standardize fire and safety testing as electricity was the new technology spreading into homes. But now it's everywhere, and "safety" in tech doesn't just mean the hardware. UL is adapting quickly to the connected, AI-powered era... but do the companies making and distributing tech even care about standards anymore? Links: * How fake UL certifications led to Chinese ebike suit | Electrek * FCC IoT program loses UL after China probe | Cybersecurity Dive * FCC’s Carr probes IoT program lab over “ties to China” | PC Mag * The US router ban, explained | The Verge * More than 500,000 hoverboards recalled (2016) | The Verge * Brendan Carr is a dummy | The Vergecast Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today on Decoder, I want to lay out an idea that's been banging around my head for weeks now as we've been reporting on AI and having conversations here on this show. I've been calling it software brain, and it's a particular way of seeing the world that fits everything into algorithms, databases and loops. Software brain is powerful stuff. It's a way of thinking that basically created our modern world. But software thinking has also been turbocharged by AI in a way that I think helps explain the enormous gap between how excited the tech industry is about the technology and how regular people are growing to dislike it more and more over time. Links: * Why software Is eating the world | Marc Andreessen * Gen Z’s love-hate relationship with AI | The Verge * The attacks on Sam Altman are a warning for the AI world | The Verge * Silicon Valley has forgotten what normal people want | The Verge * I saw something new in San Francisco | The New York Times * Anthropic CEO issues dire warning about white-collar work | The Street Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices