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”看山是山，看山不是山，看山还是山”。
"To see mountains as mountains; to see mountains not as mountains; to see mountains still as mountains."
这是一场发生在武汉小酒馆的线下对谈，录制于 2026 年 5 月初的夜晚。几杯酒水相伴，几位设计师、从业者围坐闲谈。
This is an in-person dialogue held at a small wine bar in Wuhan, recorded on an early May evening in 2026. Over a few rounds of drinks, several designers and practitioners sat together chatting casually.
2026年5月线下访谈
主嘉宾任教于匈牙利知名欧洲高校建筑学院，拥有 25 年教学经验，近十年间他曾多次到访武汉。在与两位中国设计师的交流中，他分享了自己深耕多年的 “寂静建筑” 理念。当晚我们聊得十分宽泛：设计真正的价值是什么、国内行业 9.9 元图纸、200 元低价方案带来的恶性价格竞争；人所能进入的 “在场” 状态；以及一座缺少成片历史保护街区的城市，是否就等同于没有历史底蕴。很多话题没有提前预设，顺着聊天自然延伸。
Our main guest is a full professor at the the institute of Architecture of a prestigious Hungarian university in Europe, with 25 years of teaching experience. He has visited Wuhan numerous times over the past decade. In conversation with Chinese designers and friends, he shared his long-cultivated philosophy of "Silent Architecture". We covered a wide range of topics that night: the true value of design; the vicious price competition plaguing China’s domestic industry driven by 9.9-yuan drawing files and 200-yuan low-cost design proposals; the immersive state of "presence" one enters; and whether a city lacking large contiguous heritage conservation blocks is inherently devoid of historical depth. Not all the discussion topics were pre-planned; our conversation unfolded naturally as we talked.
寂静建筑工作坊 Workshop “Silent Architecture ”
🍻本期嘉宾
主嘉宾
阿克斯·赫特博士（佩奇大学建筑学教授）
特邀嘉宾
湖北工业大学艺术设计学院 硕士生导师张倩
UAO瑞拓设计创始人&主持建筑师李涛（节目第 3 期嘉宾）
🍻Guests
Main Guest
Dr Ákos Hutter DLA habil
Special Guests
Ms. Zhang Qian, Graduate Advisor, School of Art & Design, Hubei University of Technology
Li Tao, Founder & Principal Architect of UAO RUITUO Design(Guest of our Episode 3)
阿克斯·赫特博士
佩奇大学建筑学教授
Dr Ákos Hutter DLA habil
Full Professor，Institute of Architecture, Faculty of Engineering and IT,University of Pecs
阿克斯·赫特博士 Dr Ákos Hutter DLA habil
阿克斯·赫特博士（建筑高等博士、特许教授资格），现任匈牙利佩奇市佩奇大学建筑学教授，同时担任中国武汉湖北工业大学艺术设计学院客座教授。自 2001 年起于佩奇大学全职任教，面向本校匈牙利语授课专业、全英文国际建筑本科与硕士项目，讲授建筑基础、住宅建筑设计、公共建筑设计、室内设计、综合设计及毕业设计课程。同时，任职于马塞尔・布劳耶博士学院，担任博士生论文指导导师，主要研究方向为历史环境中的当代建筑。
Dr Ákos Hutter DLA habil is a full professor of the Institute of Architecture at the University of Pécs, Faculty of Engineering and Information Technology in Pécs, Hungary and visiting professor of School of Arts and Design at Hubei University of Technology, Wuhan, China. He has been full time faculty since 2001 at the University of Pécs where he is teaching Basics of Architecture, Residential Building Design, Public Building Design, Interior design, Complex Design and Final, Diploma Project in the Hungarian and the International, English language based BSc and MSc Architect programs. He is a thesis advisor at the Marcel Breuer Doctoral School where his main topics are the contemporary architecture in historical environment.
曾参与美国科罗拉多州丹佛大都会州立大学建筑辅修专业的课程体系建设，并分别于 2014 年、2023 至 2024 年在该校开设建筑概论、设计工作室、室内设计与建筑结构课程。
He was involved in the development of the Architecture Minor Program at the Metropolitan State University of Denver, Co, USA.His courses were Introduction to Architecture, Design Studio, Interior Design and Building Structures at the MSU Denver in 2014 and 2023 - 2024.
2015 年米兰世博会匈牙利馆《磨坊》
Expo Milan 2015 Hungarian Pavilion - “The Mill”
代表性设计作品包括佩奇大学科研中心，以及斩获奖项的 2015 年米兰世博会匈牙利馆方案。
Some selected projects from his design portfolio are the Research Centre at the University of Pécs and the award winning Hungarian Pavilion design to the Milano Expo in 2015.
🎺适合谁听
• 建筑、室内与城市设计从业者及学生——尤其是正在重新思考设计价值、职业尊严与低价竞争的人。
Architects, interior and urban designers, and students — especially those rethinking the value of design, professional dignity, and the impact of low-price competition.
• 设计教育者与关注设计启蒙的家长——想了解设计素养为何应从基础教育开始，以及如何用简单材料训练空间感知的人。
Design educators and parents interested in early design education — anyone curious about why design literacy should begin in primary school and how simple materials can train spatial awareness.
• 对“寂静建筑”、极简空间与“当下感”感兴趣的人——想知道建筑如何让人慢下来，重新感受自身与环境。
Listeners drawn to “Silent Architecture,” minimal space, and presence — those curious about how architecture can help us slow down and reconnect with ourselves and our surroundings.
• 关注城市记忆、历史保护与跨文化观察的人——想从中匈设计者的对谈中，重新认识武汉及欧洲城市经验。
Anyone interested in urban memory, heritage conservation, and cross-cultural perspectives — and in seeing Wuhan and European urban experience through a Chinese-Hungarian design dialogue.
🌐嘉宾快问快答
Q1：你眼中“设计的核心价值”是什么？
What, in your eyes, is the core value of design?
A：Service——服务社会。设计的本质是服务，而不是美学、形式或功能本身。
Service — service to society. Design's essence is service, not aesthetics, form, or function per se.
Q2：你在 Pécs 大学教了 25 年，最让你骄傲的一门课是？
After 25 years of teaching, which course are you most proud of?
A：把 Simon Ungers、Louis Kahn、Peter Zumthor 的“基础空间哲学”，压缩成 10 天的低年级工作坊——让他们用一种材料（如混凝土）去“找那个最简单的空间”。
Compressing the "basic space philosophy" of Simon Ungers, Louis Kahn and Peter Zumthor into a 10-day workshop — asking students to use a single material to "find the simplest space."
Q3：用“一个词”形容你的设计，你会选哪个？
Use ONE word to describe your design?
A：Amateur——但不是业余，而是“非常专业的业余者”，永远带着激情。
Amateur — not "unprofessional," but a "very professional amateur," forever fuelled by passion.
寂静建筑工作坊 Workshop “Silent Architecture ”
🔍时间轴
10 年间最直观的两个变化：地铁线 + 新建筑The two most tangible changes in 10 years: new metro lines and new buildings
设计的核心价值，是服务——服务社会、服务人。The core value of design is service — service to society, service to people.
本地建筑设计师的回答：先生存，再谈 nice，再谈 quality，再谈 brandA local architect's answer: survival first, then nice, quality, brand
设计是为生活带来“最好的意图”Design is about adding the best intention to life
行业的“自伤”：免费出 3 套方案的旧时代The industry's “self-inflicted wound”: the old “three schemes for free” era
学生实习的真实困境：200 元 / 单方案，平台抽 50%Student internship reality: 200 yuan per design, platforms taking 50%
9.9 包邮的淘宝农村自建房设计“全屋套图”9.9-yuan “whole-house” self-build design packs on Taobao
解药：设计应从小学开始教The suggestion: design should be taught from primary school
寂静建筑的真正源头： 20 世纪现代主义建筑大师The real sources of Silent Architecture: 20th-century modernist masters
为什么选择建筑：硕士时遇到一位改变一生的匈牙利教授（“靠贵人”）Why architecture: meeting a Hungarian professor who changed his life
武汉历史感“看不见”的真正原因——不是历史短，是“结构性差异”Why Wuhan's history is “invisible” — not short history, but “structural difference”
一本被引用的书：《The Power of Now》（当下的力量）A book reference: The Power of Now
设计的至高境界——让人通过建筑感受到当下The highest state of design is letting people sense the present through a building
比“心流”更高的状态，是“在场”——骑摩托时便是这种状态Above “flow” lies “presence” — riding a motorcycle is exactly that state
用一个词形容自己的设计Describe your design in one word
禅宗三境：“看山是山，看山不是山，看山还是山”Zen three stages: “mountain is mountain, isn't mountain, again mountain”
为什么总是神采奕奕、毫无倦意？Why are you always so cheerful, never yawning?
旅行是一种治愈。新地方、新人、新想法，让你没有过去Travel is healing. A new place, new people, new ideas leave you with no past
🔗猜你想看
▍专业术语释义
佩奇大学 University of Pécs ：
佩奇大学是匈牙利规模最大的高等院校之一，同时也是多瑙河以西地区的知识中心。学校现有在校生 22000 人，其中国际学生近 5000 名，教职科研人员 1700 名，下设 10 个学院；办学历史最早可追溯至 1367 年。
The University of Pécs, with its 22 000 students, almost 5 000 international students, 1 700 lecturers and researchers, and 10 faculties is one of the largest higher education institutions in Hungary and the centre of knowledge within the Transdanubian region. Its roots date back to 1367.
University of Pécs | International Centre
佩奇大学
“寂静建筑”工作坊(Workshop “Silent Architecture ”)：
寂静建筑是关于有意义的、极简的和平衡的设计。通过独特而持久的空间体验，改善人类生活的建筑和室内设计项目。我们通过设计来帮助他人，这是人对人的关怀。”
“Silent Architecture is about meaningful, minimal, and balanced design. Architecture and interior design projects that improve human life, through unique, long lasting spatial experiences. We are humans helping humans through design.”
本次工作坊，是向当代建筑诸位大师及其人文设计思想致以致敬。我们将尝试寻找一种基本的空间创造方式，使设计者能够探索自己最深层的内在声音。对于人类生活而言，空间不仅仅是其背景，而是其组成的一部分，是我们想要达成的意识状态和功能的有机组成部分。为了找到空间的本质，我们将进行实验，利用基本的几何形态、材料、结构系统和功能布局来创造“空间”的本质。
This workshop is a sort of tribute to the great masters of contemporary architecture and their philosophy of humanistic design. We attempt to find the way of fundamental space creation where the human being is able to explore its deepest inner core sound. The space is not only a backdrop of human life, it is a part of it instead. Integral part of the aimed state of mind and function. In order to find the essential type of space, we are going to take experiments utilizing basic geometrical forms, materials, structural systems and functional arrangements to create the essence of ‘SPACE’.
寂静建筑工作坊 Workshop “Silent Architecture ”
工作坊理论背景Theoretical Background：
关于阿尔贝托·坎波·贝萨: “寂静” 建筑艺术
在尝试将阿尔贝托·坎波·巴埃扎的作品置于当代建筑的背景中时，最好想象一个巨大的消声室坐落在摇滚音乐会的中央。这个超静音且严密封闭的消声室, 由于完全没有反射声和背景噪音，一开始可能会让人感到迷失。据说，过一段时间后，你会开始听到自己的心跳声、血液流动声以及肺部的扩张和收缩声：你自己变成了声音。
阿尔贝托·坎波·巴埃扎的建筑掩盖了日常噪音和世俗的喧嚣，仿佛是完全寂静的空间，在这些空间中，形式和功能被简化到本质，放大了强烈的存在感。
Alberto Campo Baeza: The Art of “Silent” Architecture
When trying to place Alberto Campo Baeza’s work within the context of contemporary architecture, it is best to imagine a large anechoic chamber sitting in the middle of a rock concert. Ultra-silent and tightly sealed, the anechoic chamber can be a disorienting environment due to the complete absence of reflected sound and background noise. It is said that, after a while, you start to hear your own heart beating, blood running, and lungs expanding and compressing: you become the sound.
Muffling out the everyday noise and the cacophony of the mundane, Alberto Campo Baeza’s buildings appear to be spaces of complete silence where form and function — stripped down to their essences — augment an acute sense of being.
▍相关人物简介
Louis Kahn（路易斯 · 康，1901–1974）
美国与爱沙尼亚（当时属于沙俄帝国）出身的 20 世纪建筑大师，代表作包括在加州拉霍亚的 Salk Institute、德州的 Kimbell Art Museum 等。他提出“Silence is light”（沉默即光、光即沉默）这一哲学作为他设计的核心哲学。
Louis Kahn (1901–1974): an American-Estonian 20th-century master, known for works like the Salk Institute and the Kimbell Art Museum. His philosophy "Silence is light" is the spiritual core of Akos's Silent Architecture research.
Alberto Campo Baeza（阿尔贝托・坎波・巴埃扎，1946– ）
西班牙当代极简主义建筑代表人物、建筑教育家，长期任职马德里建筑学院教授，曾于全球多所顶尖高校讲学。他承袭路易斯・康 “沉默与光” 的思想，构建寂静建筑 完整理论体系。
Alberto Campo Baeza（1946 -）： a representative figure of contemporary Spanish minimalist architecture and an architectural educator. He has long served as a professor at the School of Architecture of Madrid and delivered lectures at numerous top universities worldwide.Inheriting Louis Kahn’s idea of "silence and light", he established a complete theoretical system of Silent Architecture.
Marcel Breuer（布劳耶，1902–1981）
匈牙利·美国建筑师，包豪斯学校第三期学生，后在哈佛与格罗皮乌斯共事。代表作包括惠特尼美国艺术博物馆、UNESCO 巴黎总部大楼。Pécs 出身。
Marcel Breuer (1902–1981): Hungarian-American architect, Bauhaus third-cohort student, later worked with Walter Gropius at Harvard. Notable works include the Whitney Museum of American Art and UNESCO Headquarters in Paris. Born in Pécs.
王澍（Wang Shu，1963— ）
中国建筑师，2012 年普利策克奖得主，业余建筑工作室创始人。Akos 在本期中说：Wang Shu 以“业余”自居，他愿意永远是一位带着激情的“业余者”。
Wang Shu (b. 1963): Chinese architect, 2012 Pritzker laureate, founder of Amateur Architecture Studio. Akos cites his studio name as the embodiment of his "very professional amateur" identity.
Eckhart Tolle（1948— ）
德国出身的灵性作家，代表作为 1997 年出版的《The Power of Now（当下的力量）》。嘉宾张倩在本期引用了该书，提出“在场”的状态。
Eckhart Tolle (b. 1948): German-born spiritual writer, best known for his 1997 book The Power of Now. Zhang Qian cites the book on the show as inspiration for the concept of "presence."
寂静建筑工作坊 Workshop “Silent Architecture ”
🎧本期音乐
Polonaise in b flat major
🌐公告牌
设计是一种爱的行为——喜爱、热爱、关爱。我们的播客，将以设计为锚点，用“双声”解构传统视角的边界——设计需兼顾“解决问题”与“社会价值”，一面扎根产业实践，拆解设计如何成为驱动社会创新的隐性引擎；一面叩问哲学本质，探讨设计与审美、功能、科技与文明发展的平衡共生。
不做碎片化观点的堆砌，也拒绝非黑即白的判断；既倾听设计师的创作初心，也关注用户、市场、技术的多元反馈。让每一次对话都成为“设计连接世界”的切片，在专业与大众的碰撞里、传统与未来的对话中，找到设计真正的力量与温度。
🎺创作团队
主播&策划丨汪老板&Cindy
音频&设计丨小肩膀
🍻互动话题
你有没有一个“在场”的时刻想跟我们分享？
Do you have a “moment of presence” you'd like to share?
评论区告诉我们你的“在场时刻”。
Tell us your “moment of presence” in the comments .
📖免责声明
本播客中引用的专家公开言论、书籍文献及项目案例等内容，仅为丰富话题解读、拓展思考维度，不涉及任何商业用途，相关观点、版权均归原作者所有。节目中所有谈话内容，均源于主播及嘉宾的个人见解与热情分享，基于录制时的认知与信息来源，不代表绝对标准答案，也无意替代任何专业领域的指导。我们鼓励每位听众结合自身情况独立判断，审慎决策。因使用节目内容而产生的任何后果，需由使用者自行承担。
感谢您喜爱我们的原创内容。如希望转载或引用节目内容，请提前与我们联系取得同意，并在使用时注明出处。
